M.A.I.’s Bob Sykes talks to renowned Wing Chun Master, James Sinclair about Wing Chun politics, mixed martial arts and the journey that makes Wing Chun a lifetime pursuit.

Bob Sykes: How does your training schedule compare to that of twenty years ago?

James Sinclair: The saying 'youth is wasted on the young' certainly rings true. When we are young we have so much energy and time. We see things much more in terms of right and wrong and not the middle ground. You are impressionable and can be manipulated. With age comes valuable experience and understanding that there may be more than one view, and they can all be right from another perspective. That is why so many martial art approaches exist…..

More than 20 years ago I would say I was definitely over-training. Repetition of skill is no bad thing up to a point, but the fitness was ridiculous. I would run, cycle and swim miles a day and exercise every single part of my body, then train in class. I would also spend considerable time on the forms and hand conditioning and trying to develop good short distance power. There was a lot to train and I took the challenge to heart. I did no weight training as I was told it would slow me down. That was a shame as that is what I needed to encourage physical growth. Later I incorporated some into my workouts and thoroughly enjoyed it. However I find the pole and knives beneficial in developing the specific strength and flexibility I need for the art.

Fitness training is now a major industry and so much research is available. There is no doubt people have better access to good scientifically based research than I had years ago. Now the individual has to sift through it and find a direction!

Today quality of training is the key. I still train regularly on the dummy, the pole and knives and of course touch hands. I don't tend to train with the same intensity on hand conditioning or stamina work that I once did as I find the hand and forearms are relatively easy to maintain, once the work has been done. I train to maintain, and slowly build on what has been gained over the years. Most of your readership knows it is much harder to make improvements in your standard than to maintain it. Getting there was a hard slog that I undertook with gusto, maintaining that intensity would have killed me by now. I don't fight in competition and there is no major goal I feel I need to achieve that requires that level of sacrifice and dedication at the moment, so I train for the art and try to keep a good balance in my life. Every so often I push myself again and try to push my personal boundary.

I do not regret the many hours and sacrifices I made through my single minded attitude, it rooted a lot of core skill and I gained valuable experience. I was a young and very slim man and there were bigger stronger students everywhere who had no intention of helping me through words. They physically beat me week in and out. I had friends like Steve Smith who helped me to train to overcome certain individuals with skill and patience as I was not the most gifted student. I worked my way up steadily, only trying to defend myself at first, then containing them and eventually overcoming them. I worked on every aspect of the Wing Chun I knew at that time and learnt to feel their intention. When I got to a level where I could handle them, they left. Is that not similar to bullies in life generally?

There is very little that separates one man from another if weight and strength are similar. The factors that will make the difference are experience, skill and the strength of heart.

Fighting is the domain of the young, even Randy Couture, who could still whip most people in the world today, will have to retire from his sport. Whenever you are pushing the limits you are close to injury and the body recovers more slowly with age. For example injured knees, backs, elbows and hands result in arthritic joints later; and at a time when you should be relaxing pain free and enjoying life. I feel I had a very long apprenticeship.

Bob Sykes: We are now living in what many consider to be the cross training era, have you taken time out to study other styles of martial arts?

James Sinclair: No I am a Wing Chun stylist through and through. I grapple on a regular basis for fun, fitness and orientation, but to say I study grappling would be an insult to the many dedicated practitioners out there. I grapple for me, because it is a great change and humbles me. It reminds me what my own students feel like when they train in Wing Chun as beginners. I think it's fair to say I have 'researched' other styles and seen where Wing Chun has come from and looked to see where it may go. Wing Chun is a very comprehensive art and encompasses all that I enjoy in training. I really don't care if someone else can beat me in a fight. As I said last month I am here for the journey, I won't switch styles. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, and the rest is art and heritage. I am proud to train and, in some small way, represent Wing Chun.

Bob Sykes: How important an aspect is ground work for wing chun practitioner?

James Sinclair: Wing Chun follows the human instinct to stand and walk. Other so called 'battlefield arts' also tend to lack grappling to the skill level that people demonstrate today, as it is easier for another of your opponents to stab you in the back. Part of Wing Chun skill development is to 'clinch' with people at a controlled distance, so you don't get bitten or head-butted and they don't tie you up! The Wing Chun art has the arsenal to deal with grapplers, but it is the individual who must apply it.

Human instinct is to grab and hold if you lose balance, or are hurt. Wing Chun has a very clear approach to this scenario and it is something I have shared with my students for many years. We simply have a different approach.

In the street, very high level groundwork skills are not so important. Like all arts, good basics are the key. If we are talking martial art challenges, or competition, then experience at higher level skills becomes important. All fighters know how to block a jab, cross or hook. It is the experience level that the strike is thrown that makes it hard to stop; otherwise boxers would never hit each other!

Wing Chun can be far too clever at times, and this intellectualisation takes the art far beyond what is necessary for self-defence, but makes the journey all the more interesting. However, this combined with an instructor who will not be questioned and focuses on clever skills too early rather than solid basics, could be a recipe for disaster.

My limited experience of grappling is that they too would only need a fraction of their skills for self defence. Some of the gi work is amazingly clever, but completely unnecessary in the street. One has to know what it is you want from your training. Wing Chun is unlikely to ever be an Olympic sport like Judo, Wrestling or Taekwondo, which is a great loss to the young and ambitious. They have a great opportunity to excel in their own chosen field.

Grapplers and strikers all lose to each other from time to time. In MMA matches the public don't think the loser is useless, they admire his courage for giving it a go. In Wing Chun you get the impression everyone thinks everyone else in Wing Chun is useless, and yet they can't prove it! Saying you're the best is fine, saying someone else is useless is childish. Everybody can learn from one another, without having to change styles! You can improve your own experience only through experience. Theory is just the beginning.

Bob Sykes: The clinch is another range of importance that recently came to light. How well does Wing Chun operate in this area?

James Sinclair: Wing Chun is about the clinch. Erik Paulson came to our school and he dealt with the clinch. We have a great DVD on the seminar if any of your readership are interested. The truth is Wing Chun is excellent in this area. Just take a look at chi sau positioning. As I said earlier it is natural to hold on. If you don't want to get hit easily, then tie people up, clinch with them.

In self defence the aggressor always has the advantage because he can simply throw multiple strikes at random. You cannot defend in such a carefree manner. If it were dark for instance, you would find it hard to defend such strikes, but he can simply throw strikes in the 'hunt and hope' manner. That is why we tie up as soon as possible, but we would never attempt to take it to the ground.

However, the clinch is where modern sport fighters change, because it is very close to the 'pummelling' training that wrestlers use. At this range modern fighters will be willing and able to take it to the ground. Not necessarily a good idea in the street. However, if you want your Wing Chun skills to still remain applicable in the modern sport era you have to experience this pressure against higher skill level practitioners. Every person has a breaking point where their ability to apply their skills fail. In early training it is usually the beginner's fitness that lets them down, then losing orientation when struck. This improves with effort and experience.

Wing Chun practitioners can get too comfortable in Chi Sau because very often their partner will not even try to take them down. It is something that should be worked on because in the UK we have a lot of people who have experienced Rugby and Judo and will get close and put pressure. Real fighting is not about you learning to get in, have no doubt he will come to you, it's about keeping the other guy off you. Look at how Chuck Liddell and all the top fighters have improved their ability to stay on their feet, if that is what they choose, or indeed how well they get back to their feet if it goes to ground. Like everybody they learned through failure and gained experience.

Bob Sykes: Why specialise in one art when on the face of it, there's so many more to learn?

James Sinclair: In the past Chinese Martial Arts were taught in tight knit 'family' groups and swore a pledge of allegiance. You would never really leave and would never consider teaching outsiders or training in another art. The whole ceremony was steeped in tradition and often a blood oath was made. In fact, we still refer to each other as Kung Fu brother, sister, uncle, father etc. Today martial arts in the West are very open and nobody cares if you chose Wing Chun or Kali or Judo or in fact do all at once. However, there is nothing wrong with wanting to master one art completely. That can be hard enough. To master many would be a real challenge. However, the benefits of adding a weapons based style to an empty hand background are obvious. But I would want to learn from a master of his art, because his whole outlook would be from a particular viewpoint.

In terms of modern mixed martial arts it may be possible to see them as an amalgam. However, the purer the original constituent parts, the better the end product. Mixed martial arts needs it sources! Why re-invent the wheel all the time, when the technology to improve and build upon the wheel is there. Besides, from what I have seen all mixed martial art competitors appear to have a core strength in one particular area.

If we lose the traditional arts we also lose a reflection of human culture and development. Every martial artist has to review his basics from time to time, master or not! It is a fact that art is for beauty and expression, and it does not have to be practical all the time, even Wing Chun! As long as the student knows the difference they will be fine.

There is difference between mixed martial art competition and training in a number of traditional martial arts (cross training) and self defence. Cross training is about extending your boundaries and taking on ideas, ways of thinking and their artistic concept. You can be so much more diverse from Karate, to Kali, from Tai Chi to Thai Boxing from Wresting to Wing Chun. They are so different and all have their points, and would certainly contradict each other at times.

Mixed Martial Arts competitors I see as supreme sportsmen trying to gain the edge. A cage or ring fighter cares not a jot if his hand position in a form is not perfect. In fact, I doubt he would care to learn a form. He is focused on fighting within the parameters of his sport, winning within the rules, with whatever is legally allowed.

Those who developed Wing Chun a couple of hundred years ago in a small town in Southern China wouldn't have been exposed to what we nowadays are exposed to. Therefore, they only developed their art in a certain direction. But Wing Chun is clearly a synthesis of many arts that were present at the time, and it is this that made it unique, it is has not come from nothing, so it is a mixed martial art in another sense.

Bob Sykes: Self Defence and Martial Arts are they the same thing?

James Sinclair: Absolutely not! In a self defence scenario one individual does not want to fight and one is absolutely intent on making their victims' day a nightmare. Please note the word victim not opponent. Self defence refers to the precautions you take in an attempt to prevent the physical confrontation stage. From assessing your environment, locking doors and windows, not getting drunk or high on drugs, being left vulnerable, to body language, positioning, personal space and verbal control Self defence refers to you protecting yourself from a criminal or outlaw (someone prepared to live outside the law of the land) not constrained by rules, art, or control. They just fight and go with it, win or lose there is no need for thought. Every person can fight if they love life enough, whether or not a person can win is another story. The physical stage is the worst possible. The last thing a woman fighting a man intent to sexually violate her wants.

In sport, competitors actively seek out opponents and relish the opportunity to test themselves. Fools on the weekend high on drugs, alcohol or hormones do the same but pick on unwilling victims.

In MMA competitions you have to 'finish the opponent' following him down, repeatedly hitting until the referee stops the fight. However, in a street fight every punch you made after he was downed is a longer stretch in jail for you! Reasonable force... Even if you win the fight someone else started, you will still be arrested and have to prove that you did not start it, and that you were reasonable in your defence.

If you look at MMA competitions not many people tap when being struck as they are dazed and possibly concussed. There is a reliance on a referee to stop the fight. In locks and chokes most people have a good chance to tap and from experience know it. In the street the lack of a referee means you have to rely on a good citizen or the police or a kindly doorman to stop someone from reigning down blow after blow. That, sadly, is unlikely as the public are frightened by violence, doormen will only work in the club not outside as they fear the legal repercussions, and the police aren't always there when you need them! Also, if you behave in a manner that demonstrates excess violence upon someone you may be unlucky and find his friends will save him by beating you en mass, and with whatever is to hand! The problem with violent idiots is that they hang around with violent idiots.

One punch too many and their desire for revenge will eat them up, and they will just as happily hit you with a bat from behind, after all, you beat them face to face. Sun Tzu said 'give your opponent and honourable retreat'.

Bob Sykes: Tell me about your visit to Hong Kong and what did you find so interesting?

James Sinclair: I went to Hong Kong for the first time since January 1989. I was invited by Si Gung Ip Chun to attend the 2nd World Conference. As you know politics are rife and I was not made welcome by some UK individuals. During the conference I was invited, at the last minute, to conduct a seminar and I took up the opportunity. I chose to teach outside on a grass field rather than a classroom as I felt it was wrong for me to lecture my kung fu brothers. I demonstrated a little, and had a Q & A session. Most enjoyed what I did. I enjoyed the hard time that Gary Mackenzie Sifu gave me!! He was so very helpful in Hong Kong. Asalaam alakum.

Si Gung Ip Chun also organised a 200 man Chi Sau event and we got to touch hands with a few people, some tried to test me, which was to be expected in the circumstances. I was most proud of my students who held themselves with dignity and proved their skills were on par with anyone else in the wing Chun field.

We also went to China and here my students took part in a demonstration in the Chin Woo School in Foshan. My senior students Mark Phillips and Nick Martin trained Chi Sau together outside the Ip Man Tong (Museum) to the delegates and impressed many with their artistic applications.

We applied for membership to the Ving Tsun Athletic Assoc. My students were recognised and accepted as Sifu's and given permanent membership status. This made me happier than my own acceptance. I am honoured that, among the many, Si Gung Ip Chun personally vouched for me. I am now hoping to get some of my other senior instructors recognised as they could not make it to Hong Kong. People like Sifu Abid Mahmood who has over 20 years training experience in Wing Chun and runs a full time school in Hockley, Birmingham. He is so talented and humble and deserves the recognition.

Bob Sykes: Did you encounter Mantis style while in Hong Kong?

James Sinclair: Yes, in 1989 I visited a Gong Sai Mantis Master and in 2006 there was a Praying Mantis demo at the Chin Woo School in Foshan China. This gentleman did his demo, blew everyone away, and humbly sat down. I have to be honest and say it put a lot of the Wing Chun demo's to shame with its power and beauty. Wing Chun is not so dynamic to look at.

Bob Sykes: 21 today James, is that you or your association?

James Sinclair: Certainly not me! I guess it is a remarkable achievement and we have a number of fantastic instructors that have travelled the journey with me. We have taught many of the most recognised teachers in the UK. Some are no longer with the UKWCKFA but I hope they still have fond memories of their time with us. My students Mark Phillips and Nick Martin have arranged a celebratory event in Chelmsford, Essex with a series of seminars and demonstrations and a meal afterward. Many students from the last 20 years will be present which is great. We will be touring our schools with the demo team and letting the public see our approach. We would consider taking it to Seni or other martial art events if the interest was there.

Bob Sykes: You've with out doubt a great reputation James, have you ever-considered taking control of Wing Chun within the UK?

James Sinclair: Funnily, I was asked this question by another Wing Chun teacher, but Wing Chun is not ready for anyone to take that kind of role. In Hong Kong, some people do not wish to be associated with certain groups due to politics. There will always be politics and many of the great practitioners I met in Hong Kong said that as far as they were concerned I didn't need anyone's recognition.

The biggest Wing Chun Assoc. in the world has its own approach, its own marketing team and is a big business, nigh on corporation. They need no one. Another senior Wing Chun teacher in the Midlands chooses not to teach professionally. With such divergent ideals it would be impossible to get everyone to work together.

What would I take control of, money, people's recognition, their freedom, their ability to adapt and change and express themselves through Wing Chun? I would not want to shackle anyone in any way. I believe Wing Chun will always have problems; it is the nature of the beast. We don't actually fight so the words just bounce around the internet; it's all hot air really. We all get on with our own journey. I teach because I love it and wake up everyday grateful that my life is Wing Chun, I would hate to lose that by being tied up in politics.

However, I would happily take on students or teachers that feel alone and have no support or direction. But I would not want a situation that people feel they should join for fear they are not recognised or authorised.

As an independent Assoc. we produce great teachers. We have a full teacher training programme and well defined teaching syllabus that gets great results. Other people do things their own way and that is fine. We can look at many different Wing Chun approaches and it is obvious which is good or bad. Not because they are different, there are universal qualities that transcend the differences in approach.

If anyone wishes to experience a modern master and practitioner check out Mark Phillips Sifu in Southgate North London. His full time school is superb and his personal ability outstanding. Go to www.londonwingchun.co.uk for details.

Bob Sykes: Politics, where would we be without them?

James Sinclair: Debate is fine, argument can be exhausting, but slander is illegal for good reason.

Bob Sykes: James what would you like to be remembered for?

James Sinclair: That is for others to state. Anything they said would pale into insignificance when comparing to the happiness I feel when remembering so many people who now love Wing Chun, and those I have taught that now spread Wing Chun.

Master Sinclair is relocating to the Cambridge/Peterborough area quite soon and will be teaching in the region.

Those interested contact him via:

UK Wing Chun Assoc HQ Lubards Lodge, Hullbridge Rd, Rayleigh, Essex. SS6 9QG

Web ukwingchun.com e-mail info@ukwingchun.com Tel 07860 276923